The New Era For Cardano ADA with Charles Hoskinson
but I think there’s a great impatience where people don’t see the price moving up and so they instantly infer well if that’s the case it must mean that it’s a dead ecosystem and it’s in a great decline Meanwhile we’re just about to do the greatest governance upgrade in the history of the project and probably the history of the industry we have the best scalability plan we have a very vibrant Rich Community when you look at rare Evo and you look at the cardano foundation Summit you look at all the cool things the communities buil and there’s all these cool daps and di5 projects which are all homegrown and they don’t have ponz anomic or any of these other [Music] things this content is brought to you by uphold which is one of the top crypto platforms out there which allows you to easily buy sell trade Bitcoin and the top altcoins in the market uphold list 260 plus cryptocurrencies they also allow you to trade precious metals such as gold silver Palladium and platinum I’ve been a user of uphold since 2018 so I can vouch with this platform they have full transparency reports and they don’t Co mingle or lend out your funds they also have a great product called Vault which is an assisted self- custody product a vault allows you to maintain custody of your funds and the keys are split so uphold holds one and you hold too and if there’s any issues if you lose one of your keys uphold will help restore these uh keys and you can maintain uh access to your funds it’s 24/7 instant trading it’s trustless so this is a great feature that uh can give you peace of mind where you don’t have to worry about if you lose your private keys and much more uh so if you’d like to learn more about uphold please visit the link in the description welcome to the thinking crypto podcast I’m your host Tony Edward and with me today is Charles hoskinson who’s the founder of cardano Charles great to have you back on it’s great to be here Tony thank you so much for having me on yeah Charles I’m excited to chat with you obviously not your first time on the podcast I’m a cardono token holder so I have a lot of questions the community sent me a bunch of questions to ask you and um of course want to get your take on the general crypto Market um I would love if we can start off with what’s upcoming for cardono what’s the latest one item I read is an upcoming hard Fork yeah so uh we’re working in parallel on the last two part parts of the cardono road map there’s boso and Vol you need voler for certain parts of boso uh so voler is all about governance and uh there was always this idea of creating the largest most representative onchain government in the entire cryptocurrency space uh and we spent two years as an ecosystem having those discussions so we wrote first a sip 1694 named after the birthday of voler the the poet and uh we we then socialized that throughout the entire Community there was more than 25 workshops all across the world and it took over a year and a half of dialogue to get to a final design uh and now we’re in as an ecosystem the last stages of implementation of the test net for these governance tools and with it’s called soncho net uh so node 9.0 which is going to come out probably next week uh is basically the fork ready candidate so how it works in cardano land is that once all the discussions have been had the Sip process has been followed which takes quite a bit of time and a lot of hands touch it from many different institutions the stake pull operators have to be that final line in deciding whether to conduct a hard fork or not so we need 70% of them to install and then the hard Fork will get initiated so we’re almost there uh usually it takes about a month uh for that to occur but this is a very significant hard Fork because not only does it add a completely new governance system uh so the Reps and a constitutional committee and constitutional guard rails and representation and these types of things um it also actually adds a bunch of enhancements to plutus so plutus V3 which allows for BLS support so that basically brings rollups and zero knowledge stuff and all kinds of really cool scalability things into the cardano ecosystem so this is the largest and most significant hard Fork ever done and it’s the most meaningful because it basically builds a whole onchain government turns on the cardano treasury there’s almost a billion dollars of value floating around there uh and it uh basically turns on Democratic consent and constitutional representation so people will register DS just like they register Stak pools and they can delegate to them and those DS can vote uh and those DS and constitutional committee members basically control all the major governance actions whether it be hard Forks or treasury withdrawals or protocol parameter updates uh it’s the largest and most significant Dow ever built uh for uh for our industry so obviously this one’s being closely watched by many people and it’s a really exciting but it’s a little scary because it there’s no going back you know it’s like the domino effect you’ve pushed the Domino and you just have to watch what happens afterwards uh but we’re we’re all in good spirits about that the other major thing is baso and there’s kind of a multi-prong scalability approach that we’ve been taking as an ecosystem so we have Hydra which is rapidly approaching version one and there’s a lot of cool interesting things that will be demoed at uh rare Evo for that and that’s kind of our our offchain state channels play which is usually very useful on a Dap by dap basis then you also have things like uh oror Leos we just published the paper for that six years in the making so it took a really long time to get there but in our view it solves a big chunk of the blockchain tremma where you get pretty much the fastest protocol you can get it’s called a one minus Delta protocol uh but you preserve that 50% Byzantine resistance and actually have a higher degree of decentralization than we currently do which is best in class for consensus so we’re very proud of that and now it’s entering the prototyping phase and then we have things like partner chains for example which take very high load applications off the cardado network and into their own dedicated uh side chain uh that basically can run in parallel with the system and then of course all the enhancements we’re making the zero knowledge space and recur space thanks to plutus V3 and midnight so very vibrant and it’s kind of an all the above’s uh scalability strategy and a little bit of optimization little bit of new capabilities some of the old things that you’ve all come to know and expect like uh State channels and rollups and some new things like oror Leos which really innovate and bring a completely new way of looking at this stuff to the industry as a whole so boso is in in in a deep development and there’s a lot of really cool things happening you need voler to get to boso because there are certain decisions that have to be made about how to roll things out and where to break backwards compatibility and that requires complex governance to be able to have that discussion and debate and eventually converge to it you can’t really do that in a more simplistic governance sense so I have a couple follow questions here with regards to governance um let’s say there’s a new cardono token holder Ada token holder listening is there like a threshold uh how would they be able to participate in some of these votes if you could take us behind the scenes yet or is it still too early to talk about that no it’s not too early the design has been uh over a two-year period people have talked about it and so the design is completely known and fully formalized uh yeah so so basically it’s a representative democracy and so we tried to take the best elements of a republic so you have constitutional representation and and uh representatives and combine that with liquid feedback which is a concept the pirate party came up with um about 20 years ago so basically the idea is that there’s two H primary houses in kind of a fallback and so the the two houses are the DS and the Constitutional committee the DPS they register very much like a person registers a steak pool operator and then you can delegate to them a vote so you can be your own DP and delegate to yourself and that’s how you participate directly in votes or you can delegate just like you do to a Stak pool uh somebody you like or a coalition of people that you like because you can delegate to multiple DS so this allows political parties to form and this allows special interest groups to form and these types of things and there are seven different governance actions that can be brought before a d uh everything from withdrawing money from the cardano treasury to initiating a hard Fork uh to changing protocol parameter and uh everything in between now uh each of these actions are defined in s 1694 so if you’re curious you can kind of look up the table and see that now for more significant governance actions you have to then involve the Constitutional committee as well well so for example hard foring the system is very significant so there’s an onchain Constitution we wrote an interim Constitution and there’s going to be a uh a constitutional convention in Argentina at the end of the year to get the final constitution written with the community as a whole and basically that establishes some baseline and variance like hey maybe there should only ever be 45 billion Ada because that was the social contract that people signed up for these types of things and uh then some operating uh variants uh that need to be put into to bootstrap the system and basically uh the Constitutional committee’s job is to look at governance actions from the perspective of the Constitution and ask is this constitutional or not for example are they trying to print money out of thin air or these types of things in some cases you can algorithmically protect the system so we actually have a smart contract that was written with 131 onchain guard rails so in many cases like that print money you can stop that and others are social consensus which means that the uh constitutional committee can basically as a stop cap and for very significant things the Stak pool operators uh get involved as well and so it’s a tripartite model so what’s so cool about it is that we took some of the best ideas uh from traditional governments and some of these new ideas that come from the internet governance and we try to put them together in a way that creates a really nice minimum viable government system and you really judge the quality of your government by three parameters uh efficacy efficiency and integrity so efficacy is uh basically are you making the right decisions or not so you usually have some goal in mind like hey I I want to like reduce poverty or make homeless people uh get homes or something or improve the GDP and you can measure it so did it happen or not efficiency is how quickly can you get to a decision uh so does it take a year to get to yes like if you’re voting on a budget does it take six months to get a budget done or something like that or do you do in a week or something like that and integrity is who do you leave behind in the process of making decisions so high integrity systems take everybody along low Integrity systems tend to only focus on a certain group minority or majority and benefit them and kind of throw the other people and Society away so just like there’s a blockchain trilemma between scalability and decentralization and security there’s actually a governance uh trilemma where it’s really hard to have all three properties in the same governing system so China for example is fairly effective and fairly efficient they make decisions very quickly and also those decisions tend in the long Arc of things to have built up their country into superpower on the other hand a lot of decisions they made don’t have a lot of Integrity you know a lot of people get left behind human rights are violated these types of things Switzerland is a high integrity and very effective government when they make decisions they tend to be the right decisions and the Swiss have one of the freest most decentralized societies and most representative Societies in the world however it’s highly inefficient takes like 10 years to build something in Zurich you know it’s it’s very slow moving system the Swiss uh you know do think in terms of decades and centuries as do the Japanese so you know usually you get two if you’re lucky it’s really hard to have a situation where you get all three we tried to design as an ecosystem the governance system of cardano in a way where we could try to solve that tremma and be efficient effective and have high integrity and you typically do this with institutions and constitutions your Constitution is basically a memorandum on the Integrity principles that you desire and then your institutions are there to help take complex decisions and get them to a yes no state so that they can be voted on quickly and so they can pass quickly after you’ve done the desk work and the prep workk so the strength of your institutions really does tell you if you can be efficient effective and have high integrity and that’s the great social experiment that we’re conducting cardan land so we have institutions like intersect the members based organization anybody who holds adaa can join and uh it’s it’s taking over a lot of these functions like the product function and the budget functions and these types of things which are very complicated but there are other institutions like the cardono foundation and so forth uh and they’re there to basically lend support and Aid as well and so uh it’s kind of a giant experiment and uh we’re the most significant block chain to do something like this it’s it’s a little scary at times because you have no idea how these pieces are actually going to come together in practice but so far every social signal we’ve seen has pointed towards a commitment desire for the community to decentralize us as much as possible for example the first constitutional committee elections are being held for the interim constitutional committee responsible for turning this all on we already have 17 candidates uh running for that constitutional committee to be voted on by the adaah holders through somon Dow so that’s real exciting to see even pregnance that governance is Awakening and I expect to see dozens if not hundreds of DS uh probably in the next 90 to 120 days so you have a very diverse set of people whose only job is to think about the governance of cardano as a whole Charles hard hard question and I don’t know if you you can answer this at the top of your head because it’s it it requires or there’s a lot of factors and variables let’s say we’re using a scale of 1 to 10 for decentralization right right um and 10 may be impossible to have complete decentralization I don’t know you’re smarter on me on these things but where would you say cardano is on that scale and then with the upcoming hard Fork where would that put you so um we wrote a paper and then partnered with the University of Edinburgh to build an index called the EDI the Edinburgh decentralization index and it that paper identified and the EDI identifies eight different areas that you can look at descent centralization and so you don’t look at decentralization just from one lens but you look at it from everything from who controls the consensus nodes to how many full nodes do you have inside the system to who writes the software to the tokenomics of the system to particulars behind where security comes from is it proof of work or proof of stake based and so each and every one of these things can either move you towards a state of more centralization or less centralization it just depends on those facts and circumstances so the goal of EDI is to come up with a number and basically tell you explicitly what is the aggregate of all those different activities together now um uh they’ve been working on it for about two years and they’ve started measurements and so if you go to the website of the Nur decentralization index um you can actually see real time some of the measurements of Bitcoin and ethereum and cardano uh so I think uh with the Chang hard Fork what this is going to do is is set cardano on a path within the next 6 to 12 months to become the most decentralized cryptocurrency project ever including Bitcoin now people have a gut feeling oh I disagree with that well you know I don’t care about your feelings I care about facts and measurements and you know when we say it’s the most decentralized as measured by the EDI you can choose to agree or disagree with the EDI and if you disagree it’s an open- Source academic in metric by an academic institution so then participate in versioning the whole point of the EDI is to be version you know version 1 2 3 4 and each version tries to be more representative of what it attempts to measure which is decentralization as a whole so they’ve already begun pretty extensive conversations with Regulators like the FCA the adgm over in Abu Dhabi Vara and Dubai uh the US Department of Commerce and others to kind of say Hey you have this notion of sufficiently decentralized in your statutory Viewpoint maybe just maybe we should begin discussing and measuring it and actually the paper for EDI was approved and is going to be submitted uh is going to be uh presented at Euro at uh Financial crypto so it’s already going through the peer review process as well and there’s been some phenomenal feedback and that’s already feeding into uh the discussion of whether EDI is an effective measurement or not so my view is you have to start somewhere and because the industry doesn’t already have an accepted index of decentralization uh you know we kind of had to start from 101 and get that index bootst trapped and now the next step is to apply that index in every Dimension and that is one of the design goals when you look at protocols like or bis Leos or the onchain government system they’re not just being built from a position of efficiency and Effectiveness or throughput but they’re also looking at is decentralization preserved and protected because that’s so sacred for these systems long-term viability yeah I I need to do my reading on that but that’s great that some sort of index and scale is being made here I think it’ be really good for the industry to adopt a standard like that and it can help you know stop some fud because we know how we’ll talk a bit about crypto media and things later but you know we can use actual data and facts versus people just tweeting stuff um now you by the way we’ve been reaching out to a lot of blockchain projects on like I just had a conversation with the ALR folks and others and there’s a lot of excitement about these indexes existing because they suffer from the same problem that we suffer from which is how do you actually measure decentralization you know and you got to get away from feelings and and these Cults of personality and really get to the the facts of the matter and can we establish a Baseline and once we have that Baseline how do we then apply it and at least measure the top 30 40 50 projects in the ecosystem uh and then you have a starting point and then you go talk to policy makers and lawmakers and you say look this is our view as an industry of what we think sufficiently decentralized means do you have a differing View if so why what are you worried about is it disclosures is it information as symmetries is it um unpredictable failings or uh cascading failures like we saw in 2008 because of over centralization or a lack of transparency you know these types of things and so they’re obviously going to have a view on that and our goal is to address that view and get that into the index as well and then the hope is over time that this becomes a steering tool for project management roadmap development and ultimately Regulatory Compliance yeah great point I I I know you’re hinting towards uh let’s say like the SEC I’m sure the industry would love to have that data to fight back um you know against government overreach um that that would be pretty significant in these lawsuits and so forth yeah and also in just lawmaking so like fit 21 which everybody prays past um it has embedded within it a definition of decentralization so that’s an example and it’s the same for the FIA with the concept of the financial Innovation act lumus bill with the concept of an ancillary ACC asset and and Fit I believe they call it a restricted digital asset whatever the nomenclature is you have this concept of it starts as a security and then it goes through a series of upgrades and then eventually it becomes a commodity and the gatekeeper there is the level of decentralization of the project so the Hinman test with ethereum kind of implied this but uh this is eventually going to be written down in a law somewhere in the United States so for this to work appropriately the policy makers are going to have to decide what that test is and usually that means they’re going to form a committee between the cftc which regulates Commodities and the SEC which regulates Securities and for them to agree on something having an academic standardized Benchmark that universities use and potentially even standards bodies like Department of Commerce could use is probably a better approach because then it takes subjectivity out of the assessment and you have an objective me measurement for Better or For Worse now you can argue that that measurement is not a reflection reality or doesn’t cover enough use cases and that’s the point of versioning it you know that’s the point of waking up every day and say well tell us what version two should look like what did we miss in the uh in the index and if it becomes an industry accepted uh project then very quickly one or two years it’ll probably converge to the right measurement yeah you know as you were saying that I was thinking of um and I think you alluded to it is that uh something starts as a security but eventually becomes decentralized then it would go under the cfdc jurisdiction but that same scale or index Enterprises can look at that or individual Builder let’s say I want to launch an nft and I’m like I want to go to the most decentralized blockchain or what’s in the top five of decentralization I can do that that that would be so so uh man remove a lot of ambiguity and confusion yeah we have like government standards like fips you know 190 and etc etc and there’s there’s all these different government standards for how to build stuff and uh typically uh those are Gatekeepers for whether you get a contract or you can bid on something or if a large corporation can work with you or not uh so or cmmi is another example of that and so so by having these benchmarks what you can do is in the procurement process or quality process or security process say I only feel comfortable building on a system that’s above this particular threshold and uh and you really have to dig into the governance of it and other such things because nobody wants to build on quicksand you don’t want to go as a company and make a bet you know for a half billion dollar piece of software only to discover that the core maintainers have disappeared or you know it’s been forked because of political problems and now you have a much weaker project you know that would be pretty problematic like if you’re Samsung would you feel super comfortable if the governance of the Android project is really bad and it’s having all these issues you know would you really want to use that as your operating system of your phone probably not you know so it’s really important that you have some sort of metric that not only tells you level of decentralization but part of that decentralization is looking at the continuity and governance components of the uh of the chain itself because that kind of gives you a sense of whether that’s uh high quality product to deal with or a lowquality product yeah absolutely now you had mentioned earlier the Argentina partnership so that that’s with the cardano foundation tell us about that how did that come about and what’s the mission there so the ecosystem is pretty big um so the cardano foundation has been doing some independent work of us in uh in Argentina we’re of course aware of it because we talk to the same people um and my understanding is that’s an extension of some of the projects that they’ve had like in the country of Georgia where they’ve done some really interesting Government Contracting what we’ve been working on um has been uh basically building strong relationships in anticipation of the Constitutional Convention in December because I have very practical problem to solve um we’re bringing more than 50 people from 50 different countries to be delegates uh to the Constitutional Convention well how do visas work you know little stuff like that so there’s a lot of ground game logistical things and it’s incredibly important that we have connections at the highest levels of the Argentinian government so that nothing gets in the way of the Constitutional delegates you know they deserve if they’re going to take time and effort to commit to writing the government of cardano to get white glove treatment so they need to stay at safe places they need to have good Transportation good food uh and also get their visas approved and these things so there’s a very practical tangible set of engagements that have occurred we’ve already sent two delegations to Argentina to begin building up that Corpus um I would also like to spend some time with the president um so we’ll see if we can get our schedu aligned in July and and get that uh to happen but it would be very nice to sit down and understand more deeply about what his goals are for Argentina because there’s actually a very strong cardano relationship with Argentina we didn’t just start conversations today uh people have been working on cardano from Argentina since 2016 eight years ago uh one of the very first firms to write code for the cardono project was atex which has now been acquired by globin but Alan Verner and his team started working on that code in 2016 so there’s almost a decade long bonus Aries Connection in particular to the cardano project and so there’s a lot of really cool things whether it be a tler prism or it’ be work on Partner chains or work on midnight or cardono core that I think could be done by Argentinian developers and so really if the president wants you know I think it would be very easy for us to actually set up a center of excellence to do cryptocurrency development in the country but you know always extend the courtesy and try to get a deeper understanding of what each Administration values in some cases they’re quite compatible you know in other cases they’re not and so it’s really important to just to have a dialogue and engage with people and say okay well we bring jobs and uh obviously we bring a great ecosystem and would this technology be useful I happen to believe that Argentina is in a very interesting place in history where this current government has uh through a process he likes to call the chainsaw and the blender uh the Chainsaw cut programs and the blender not increase the spending and let inflation cut them um has basically decimated the existing government and that’s step one step two is to rebuild so then there’s an open question of when he’s rebuilding what does he rebuild with and my view is that it would be sensible to rebuild with blockchainbased Technologies blockchainbased supply chain systems and voting systems and transparency systems and accounting systems and maybe even a blockchain based money system for the uh for the state so obviously we need to get a deeper understanding if that is on the horizon and what time Horizon does that need to to look like and that’s not going to be done by a single entity it’ll probably be done by a coalition of actors and there’s a lot of very prominent cardano projects that are actually in Argentina for example people don’t a lot of people don’t know TX pipe is based in Argentina you know that’s a major cardano project 26 people on that so there’s there’s a local Coalition of people and that’s also another thing that the government needs to be educated on often times you have Western companies come to South America and they say hey we’ll do everything and we’ll be these guys up north come on down south well actually any uh meaningful government contract would probably be serviced by argentinians if uh if it was actually enacted so that’s the conversation to have so you just meet with people and you know I’m trying to solve both problems at the same time of getting that Constitutional Convention to a great state we already have some great Partnerships we just signed anou with the University of buonas Aris so the convention will be held at the school of law and it’s a absolutely stunning place and it’s the perfect place to write a constitution and ratify it uh and uh you know if you actually take a look at some of the pictures it’s one of the most beautiful law halls around uh and utn is another University that we’re looking at we’d love to build a relationship there and there’s a lot of local local government that we’ve been working with as well so that’s the Practical side of it the meat potatoes side and then there’s just talk to the government about what its goals are and if they coincide maybe that’s something for us to take care of the foundation to take care of our local Partners like TX pipe to take care of and let them be aware that they actually have a domestic option to blockchain the entire country yeah that and as you’re saying that I remember our previous conversations where we talked about countries in Africa adopting blockchain we obviously you guys doing some work there too and that they’re starting from the ground floor not like the United States where he’s trying to steer a cruise ship and and all the bureaucracy all the red tape but they can move faster and uh upgrade their infrastructure faster than maybe United States and 7 ofs First World countries um so that’s really great that they can you know adopt this technology and and just catch up so to speak yeah and we’re still in Africa in fact we’re growing by Leaps and Bounds we just relaunched the real 5way website so if you go to real fi. you can see that and that’s a micr finance play uh it’s made by John O Conor and the other guys that you he was our director of African operations and now he’s the CEO of realy and it’s one of our portfolio spinouts and uh that company employs I think almost 50 people and they’re based in nirobi and uh we’ve already deployed $5 million of capital to lend uh through Channel Partners who are regulated actors in the microf finance business so we’ve learned a lot in that process and we’ve been a bit more considered and deliberate about how to approach these types of jurisdictions and everyone’s different you know Kenya is radically different place in Nigeria than Ethiopia and in some cases you get great outcomes and um other cases not so much and you don’t let those things dissuade you you have to be a bit Relentless and resilient and every day you wake up and you try to find a different approach so maybe doesn’t work in one system fertilizer vouchers but then maybe you make it work with fast moving consumer goods or maybe that doesn’t work out so you do remittances or maybe it’s microf Finance that’s the key because at the end of the day it’s infrastructure and every time somebody does something if they’re touching a blockchain system they get a wallet they get an identity they get cryptocurrencies and once they have it they are their own bank it’s a self- sovereign identity and ultimately they’re in charge of their economic agency and that’s the mission is to bank the unbanked and you don’t have to Bank the unbank through way a versus way B it doesn’t matter which road you take you’re heading to one destination which is getting people economic uh autonomy so they have agency and they’re in control of their lives so I think the model that John has come up with which is tempered with about six years of history there in Africa uh is a really good one and we’re real excited to to see that uh grow and it’s already starting to take off by Leaps and Bounds and we’ve gotten some great preliminary data you know interest rates fell from 85% to like 133% um npl which is the non-performing loans fell from 40% to 2% imagine having a 40% default rate and then you go down to 2% it’s 20 times better so we make more they pay less and the overall uh structure goes from uh you know a big chunk of loans failing almost uh more than a third uh all the way down to um 2% 98% success it’s just remarkable All Things Considered now there’s a lot more to do there’s a founder effect in that and uh you know huge amount of work on the credit scoring side and you got to Syndicate so it has to go across border and then eventually you have to add in some more of the blockchain crypto components and then eventually open that up to the retail side so that’s a multi-year journey that they’re going on and they’ve already spent two years of that multi-year Journey you know getting that into play but we built all that technology out for like aala prism it’s not just an identity system it can also be used as a credit system as well so and we built out the voting software and built out wallet software and some variant of lace will eventually work its way into that Pipeline and then we’ll see where the stable coin side of cardano fits and then you know that works its way in as well so uh we built capabilities over a long period of time and you know it works just as well in Argentina as it does in Kenya so that’s another thing you bring to the table and you say by the way we’re doing this amazing stuff in Africa would this be interesting to you guys as well and so that’s the great part about having that that uh conversation and you can bring people together yeah I love it um and I’m just excited to see what the future like 10 years from now with blockchain AI and all these Technologies helping some of these countries which you know in the old I guess industrial system got left behind right because maybe didn’t have the natural resources or currency problems or bad governments but now blockchain and can really bring a lot of benefits to people and and the average man not just the guy sitting at the top in the government so really great um I didn’t want to ask you about midnight side chain um tell us about midnight what is it uh how cardono will benefit and then some people were saying there’s an airdrop coming from this yeah that’s correct so there’s this problem of how do you sell to centralized services to the entire blockchain industry so you know you have an application on ethereum is it really on ethereum if it’s also on infura or Alchemy and that the bulk of your logic runs there like openc is another example yeah okay we have an nft on the ethereum blockchain but if all your apis and your wallet and everything basically just talk to openc and they don’t even check the ethereum blockchain if openc gets rid of it like just disappears you know Mar uh Marty Marlin’s book uh wrote about this uh he’s one of the founders of signal and and he kind of demonstrated the hypocrisy of things where people are saying it’s decentralized and trustless and web 3 but it’s really Web Two or web 2.5 um so Services matter and I thought a lot about how do you do blockchain to blockchain Deals and so what I thought would be really cool is to have a layer that b basically specializes in that and I wrote this down in 2016 in why cardono and I had this idea of cardano SL and cardano cl so SL is the main system and cl is the control layer of the system so for eight years you know we’ve been kind of talking about this and exploring this and eventually we resurrected the idea with a framework called partner chains so what we did is we looked around we looked at Cosmos fabric uh scorex which was an in-house framework and parody substrate and we said which one of these blockchain building kits makes the most sense and a variant of parody substrate made a lot of sense so we took that as a base and then built it up and created midnight on top we’ll get to midnight in a second but let’s talk about partner chains in general but basically the idea is that you launch something that looks like a layer two to everyone so it can talk to an apps from ethereum or base or BNB or salana can use it for whatever service it’s providing maybe it’s computation or privacy or it’s storage or maybe it’s your dap backend and instead of running it in centralized infrastructure you run it in decentralized infrastructure okay so you’re Layer Two to everybody and you run this model and when they query it they pay in the currency of that chain so ether or Soul or what have you and remember we created that technology Babble fees well then what happens is then it can consume the token of that that system and then it can be secured by the cardano Stak p operators which means then the transaction fees and the inflation actually gets paid through to Ada holders and two Stak pool operators so basically you have your cake and you unit too you have these these pseudo independent networks where they partner with each other so the service provider partners with cardano for security and infrastructure and decentralization from day one as well as the security of the cardano Native asset standard but then that pays its tokens its inflation and transaction fees to cardano for providing that service so you actually get multiple revenue streams now and then in turn it sells its services to cardano and the broader blockchain industry and you say well why would I want to do that why not just use a Dap or something like that well first this economic model is wildly viral because you can actually pay that to multiple systems at the same time so you have inflation go many different places so gives people an interoperability incentive because they actually uh care about the token the second thing is that you can create chains of consensus algorithms together so part of the partner chains framework is minur and minur is this multi-resource consensus system so we all the time we have the Bitcoin Maxis proof of work proof of work and then you we’re proof of steak proof of steak and and here’s what happens you take your peanut butter you take your jelly and I see what I’m doing see what I’m doing I’m putting them together there we go peanut butter and jelly yay so what if I could put proof of work proof of stake together and more abstractly what if I could take proof of X whatever X is proof of History proof of storage whatever it is and chain it together with multiple consensus protocols in the same Ledger what does that mean it means that your partner chain can borrow security from cardano cardano gets paid for that but then you can also have your own independent consensus algorithms that also secure the system for example let’s say you wake up tomorrow and you say you know what we need to do is we need to create a competitor to chat GPT so we’re going to create our own open AI okay well what do you need for that well you need data lots and lots of data so you need some storage incentive okay what else do you need well you probably want to keep that data private so you need like a privacy system for that okay well what else need you need computation you need a ton of compute power you know Elon Musk just diverted all of his Nvidia chips from Tesla to xai he buil building a$1 billion Center Mark Zuckerberg is in my backyard building a center down in Cheyenne a million square foot data center that he’s building there you know Microsoft is with open AI building a hundred billion dollar supercomputer so you need a lot of compute power okay well what if you could create a proof of useful work where the useful work is training for llms and inference for llms then you’ve built a decentralized supercomputer that’s tokenized as opposed to these Central data centers that are being built by meta and Microsoft and xai and these other people and you could combine that with bft protocols and proof of stake protocols and these other things so you have fast finality and all these other things and at the end of the day the user experien is the same it has a chat GPT style interface and you type it in and when you do your query you pay in a token for that query kind of like the API model that everybody has so somebody can construct that chain multiple algorithms together one for incentivizing storage and data acquisition one for incentivizing useful work and computation and then one for fast finality and fast transactions you put it all together guess what you have minor that’s partner chains in a nutshell and somebody’s going to build that iagon for example is already building proof of storage inside our ecosystem World mobile is building a telecommunications system it’s a blockchain for telecommunications which is very different than a normal blockchain midnight is one about privacy preserving things for private smart contracts because businesses can’t keep a secret and uh you know well blockchains can’t keep a secret but every business business requires a secret yeah doesn’t matter if you’re McDonald’s or Microsoft every business has Secrets your amount of money in your cash register you’re probably not going to go tell people well you can’t put that up on a blockchain unless your blockchain has privacy preserving smart contracts so that’s the purpose of midnight is is the first of a kind of a new kind of blockchain a fourth generation system that can work with everybody it’s kind of a meta chain that can talk to everybody and it’s built in a framework that basically allows a broad distribution so typic if it’s a service token you want as many people as possible to have that so you do an airdrop and you just distribute the token across to everybody so from day one they can use it they don’t buy it they don’t pay for it it’s just there H because the goal of the system is to be a service and it’s to be used and provide utility to daps and then over time an economy forms and it allows The Ledger to sustain itself just like any of these others and then eventually you get many different services and there’s there’s so many social networks large language models and AI telecommunications storage and infrastructure and hosting you know to replace the inferiors and alchemies privacy as a service uh you know you can look at Medical Records you you can go down the line and you create bespoke infrastructure what’s really cool though is because they settle in their own domain those transactions don’t bloat the main cardono Network because you think about it like a world mobile let’s say they get to their goal of a billion subscribers ders well every single time your cell phone connects to a tower that’s a transaction okay so that’s a lot of juice does that value anything that you’re doing does that help your nft collection or your financial settlements or these things no but that’s an example of what that network will need to process so they need slightly different technology than what ethereum is going to offer Bas is going to offer salana is going to offer cardano is going to offer so they really need kind of Their Own blockchain but at the same J token it’s not their primary prerogative to go and figure out how to replicate or aoris or our security network effects or these types of things so really you want to be a partner where you have the parts of the chain that you can build in a modular way for you and then the parts you don’t care about that are commoditized like security and consensus you can borrow that from a different system and the process of doing that you pay for it so that’s the partnership of the partner chain two blockchains coming together and partnering with each other which is a really cool concept we don’t typically think this way in the cryptocurrency space it’s always Master Slave like Bitcoin will dominate all and you’ll all be side chains or layer 2os of Bitcoin or ethereum will dominate all or salana will dominate all it’s well I’m sorry business doesn’t work this way Microsoft’s existence doesn’t put Google out of business or Apple’s existence doesn’t put Microsoft out of business somehow they’ve all coexisted and at times they’re competitors but the Market’s large enough to sustain that so I do believe there’s going to be an internet of blockchains and it’s really important that they can talk to each other and transact with each other that’s the The Missing Link we have right now in interoperability now speaking of Partnerships and you mentioned Elon Musk uh folks wanted me to ask you that are there plans to engage with Elon and is it along the lines of using like the midnight side chain for things that he’s doing at SpaceX or Twitter or X or Tesla whatever it may be it’s strange because there’s such a strong overlap in some of the things that we both mutually think about and uh we’ve reached out numerous times to try to engage with various people whether it be at X where we even offer to do free work like with verified tweets or other things just because it’s so bad right now with Bots and these other things and it’s just always silence I even know Kimble musk and I’ve talked to him on several occasions uh and I know many people in elen’s orbit and never once as he mentioned cardano or me or anything me president Argentina just retweeted us you know it’s like we you know a lot of people know about us um but for some reason we can’t break through and I don’t know why um he’s certainly aware of crypto he’s aware of Doge he’s said things like I agree with vitalic uh you know he’s friends with Lex Friedman I’m friends with Lex Freedman we share Mutual friendships so I don’t know why we haven’t been able to square that Circle and um maybe he’s got some people in his Social Circle that don’t like me and so he’s got some Intel that I’m a bad person to work with or uh maybe it’s uh just he wants to do his own thing I don’t know um you know it makes me sad because I’m an ex-user and I have a million followers there and it would be uh problematic for that platform to fall apart or not be relevant anymore because that social capital is so valuable to us um and it’s quite useful so I would like to see X succeed and grow and uh if we could ever be part of helping that out one way or the other we’d like to do that but anyway you know there’s an old saying the dog barks but the Caravan moves on and uh you know elen does his thing and he’s elen musk uh and he’s he’s a legendary entrepreneur and no one can challenge that and people are pretty stupid if they do you know all the people who said Twitter was going to die in two weeks uh not only did it Thrive and survive it survived was onet of the the staff and he just raised 21 billion uh he just raised $6 billion out of 21 billion dollar valuation for a company whose value comes from the Twitter data set yeah so he’s already gotten half his investment back just off of that uh that one play and there’s a lot more to do so the guy’s a business genius you can never count him out I think the issue is that politically he’s gotten to a point where in certain circles he’s become kind of a giga Troll And so people conflate that with the fact that there’s a guy right now sitting quadruple iic in a wheelchair playing civilization 6 with his brain because of Elon Musk and they conflate that with Starship now Landing you know when it was blowing up on the pad beforehand and that’s probably the platform to take us back to the moon and Mars and that’s going to happen within our lifetimes likely the next 10 years uh that’s this guy you know he does these things for Better or For Worse and he’s ruthless and uh has very bizarre social skills and 10 kids from a pile of different women there’s probably more we don’t even know about um he’s just one of those guys he’s a magical guy so it’s really like a sphinx hard to understand his motivations and understand why he does what he does why does he have this bizarre fetish for Dogecoin is it that he owns 20% of the supply or is it just he’s just like the [ __ ] logo you just don’t know with a guy like that that’s the magic of uh of Elon Musk so it’s a lot of fun and uh where I think things are very unfair like the Twitter Twitter comp the the uh the Tesla compensation issue I thought that was horrendously unfair for a judge to overrule the will of the shareholders and the board 73% of the non-m musk holders of Tesla’s stock voted to give him this pay package as did the board the judge overruled that and in the process of doing that created an Avenue for the lawyers who brought the lawsuit on behalf of a single shareholder who had nine shares which went in value from $200 to $2,000 $5 billion so this particular judge affiliated with Joe Biden basically said that it’s in the interest of the shareholders to retroactively overrule them for a very fair deal and hand5 billion to attorneys on behalf of a single shareholder who made a 10x on his investment claiming his investment was hurt by that pay package I I just I’ve never seen anything in my life you know like this it’s an unbelievably unfair judgment and it just shows you never to incorporate a business in Delaware so you know put your politics aside um it’s it it’s you call it how you see it there’s plenty of things mus does that you know bother the hell out of me and there’s other things that he does that I think are quite fair or he’s been treated unfairly because of positions he’s taken um I can’t for the life me understand for example why he has not put dids into Twitter so that we can do verified tweets and much more security and uh I can’t for the life me also understand why he hasn’t embraced things like the app protocol or the fedy verse or other things that Twitter blue was trying to uh to achieve Blue Project Blue Sky um there’s a lot of really good ideas in the decentralized social networking space that I think would be quite valuable I can’t understand you know why he hasn’t integrated a crypto wallet yet or partnered with a vendor like brave for example to do these types of things uh there’s a lot of low hanging fruit who would be dying to partner with them and uh he could make Doge the currency of Twitter for example if he really wanted to and actually connect it to State channels so payment channels so you can do micro tpping tipping on tweets and these types of things uh there’s a lot there now I know he’s moving that direction like he’s getting money service business licenses I think he has in more than 20 States and he’s starting to turn on features but I mean X spaces still suck you know it’s been three years they suck and uh I use them all the time and I just need a little bit more and it would be such an effective tool um you know in our own Community there’s the sneck ofon where the snck community came together and they’ve been going for 12 days straight now and they’re going to still and they’re going to keep a 247 xas open uh for uh until binance lists them so I told them guys binance you might be in it for the Long Haul on this one so that necon might be 100 days or 200 days or 300 days but I’ve joined a few times and just to wish them well because I admire the effort but the point is that they’ve had to restart that space numerous times because it’s rugged it’ll last like 120 hours 130 hours and it just collapses it’s not Enterprise grade software yeah you know and that’s okay as a beta but this product I think has been around for three years or so forth and it’s still where it’s at on the other hand I don’t know of any other platform where you can just create an xace and four or five US senators will join you know a president of a country will join you know you get a CEO of a for fore 500 company that join just like on a drop of a hat they just see it there and they join it’s pretty remarkable as a Town Square yeah that’s pretty amazing obviously it kicked off with Clubhouse I think it was and then uh you know adopted it but uh yeah they have to fix it I get I have a bunch of problems with it anyway um we have to talk about the building on cardano because I use for example a platform called sanate where I look at different crypto metrics and cardano uh just recently was number one or has been in the top three of developer activity which is awesome um you know you mentioned snack um is there what insights can you give us as far as what developers are doing on cardano um you know anything big happening that you can share yeah well there’s a lot of really cool projects like Indigo or axo or miun there The Usual Suspects and there’s some interesting meme coins too like the Husky Community is awesome and I always enjoy talking to those guys and then obviously snck is doing its thing um and then there’s a lot of cool tooling like there’s this misconception that you have to know hasell to be able to program on cardano well Ain is the fastest growing language in the cardano universe and it’s based on Rust so very different dialect much easier to use for a lot of developers typescript is also coming to cardano it’s JavaScript dialect so the developer diversity of the tooling has has really improved over the last year in particular and that’s how long it should take you know there’s this enormous impatience in the cryptocurrency space but I talked to both Rich hickey and to Martin ADI about this years ago when and I said you know you guys created uh clure and schola respectively how long did it take to actually get that language where it needed to go and they said hey uh 3 to S years is how long it takes for when you create a programming language for it to mature and stabilize to a point where people actually feel comfortable using it building actual applications with it so 2021 late in 2021 is when plutus came out for its first version so we’re about three years into it 2024 and lo and behold now you have a vibrant ecosystem and all this great tooling which is exactly how long by the way it took for ethereum and for salana and for these other ecosystems to kind of get their sea legs and get people to do that so we haven’t we’re not really super slow we’re we’re following what the best class languages like Scala or clure or python or rust by the way it came out in 2015 and it took about eight years for rust to really reach a prominence where it started displacing real C++ jobs or these types things only recently has rust really taken off so it does take a little while for new languages new tooling new platforms new paradigms especially when it’s not just a language we don’t have an account style model with with cardano it’s an extended utxo so it’s a different accounting model so you have to write your apps differently so it’s much akin to like single thread to multi-threaded you know like single core to multicore where there needed to be a translation when people are writing programs to take advantage of those processing cores that are inside your your system and uh we’re working our way through it and the community is doing really a phenomenal job at building tooling and making that devx better I’d say we probably have about another 12 24 months of rough edges how dishonest the Crypt media oh that means you can’t build anything on cardono for another 12 to 24 months well first go [ __ ] yourself second um there’s hundreds of great projects that are building every day when I say smoothing it out I say you get to a usability where the set of developers that you can work with comfortably broadened to the beginner because it started out Advanced and now we’re kind of at the intermediate level and it’s moving to the beginner set meaning that basically any script Kitty can come in interface I don’t necessarily know for a blockchain system if that’s really a good thing or not you know it’s inevitable you can’t stop it because people always want to improve accessibility but you are dealing with distributed systems Key Management a lot of security and if you write these things in the wrong way regardless of how accessible the tools are you will introduce security problems and you’ll get hacked which is why there’s like you know billions and billions and billions of dollars every year of defi theft that occurs I think it’s like like $80 million a day or something like that of hacks that occur and a lot of that comes from poor application design and yes you can audit and yes you can use Quick Check and formal methods and these types of things and you can certainly get a higher degree of quality and maybe through static analysis you can get some good suggestions but at the end of the day if you don’t know what you’re doing you you’re going to get yourself killed and so at some point As you move your boundaries of developer accessibility you move to level where you’re actually inviting nonproductive applications inside the system and it’s inevitable you can’t stop it um my job as a tool Builder is to try to at least give people as many tools and social processes like certified applications and testing Frameworks and Auditors and kind of uh you know quality assurance stuff dap stores these types of things and we try you know where we can but all things considered to see the progress year by year from 2021 to 2022 with bossle to what we achieved in 2023 to where we’re at now with plut B3 it really is impressive and by every metric transaction volume and tvl and other things it’s growing the way it should grow the problem is just people lie they say there’s no tvl no dap activity there’s no stable coins there are stable coins you might not like Jed and usdm and these types of things but they do exist right and the foundations in tough negotiations with circle back and forth I view like coinbase remember everybody’s when coinbase when coinbase when coinbase if you remember back in 2021 there’s an inevitability behind it right but there’s also a responsibility in these types of things where you probably don’t want Walmart to come and shut down all the small businesses in your town so analogously maybe just maybe if you bring a circle in it’d be good to shore up the smaller you know stable coins as well so they don’t get obliterated by the existence of usdc inside the system because there are people have invested millions of dollars in their time in building that infrastructure up and a stable coin’s a stable coin you know it’s as long as you can find the right bridging and translation of these things it ought to work uh so you know it it is what it is there’s an inevitability behind it but I think there’s a great impatience where people don’t see the price moving up and so they instantly infer well if that’s the case it must mean that it’s a dead ecosystem and it’s in a great decline Meanwhile we’re just about to do the greatest governance upgrade in the history history of the project and probably the history of the industry we have the best scaleability plan we have a very vibrant Rich Community when you look at rare Evo and you look at the cardano foundation Summit you look at all the cool things the community is building and there’s all these cool daps and defi projects which are all homegrown and they don’t have panomics or any of these other things it’s a cool ecosystem you know to look at and it’s a fast growing ecosystem and then I’m just told again and again on Twitter and by the crypto media it’s dead there’s nothing nothing there and you say okay well all that stuff doesn’t exist even Bank list was a great example of this it’s a microcosm of the broader macrocosm where they petulantly and arrogantly say come kiss the ring and come on our show and explain to us why it’s not a dead ecosystem I said okay well if you’re really serious about it why don’t you just come to rare Evo and you literally can see all the different projects building and then what are you going to do go up to them and say tell us why you don’t exist yeah tell us why you have no transactions tell us way and they’ll be like but we do exist we do have trans we do have people it’s here it’s running uh-huh uh-huh yeah yeah but you can’t because our thesis is you don’t exist so what they and and that’s the issue it’s like you then then they say no to that offer and they try to say well you’re a coward you’re afraid you you you just don’t want to have the debate guys I went on a stage with 85,000 people at web Summit with uh what’s his name Ben Ben Kingsley or whatever it is uh the the the guy from the OC who hates crypto and and the thesis of the panel Ben McKenzie I think it was the thesis of the panel was uh is crypto a scam yeah okay so I’m sorry I if I did that in the US con Congress I I don’t think I’m super scared of sitting on a podcast for an hour or two with these two clowns no it’s more it’s more principles of saying are people actually giving us a fair consideration or have they already made up their mind and they’re just looking for evidence to confirm a preconceived notion that they have or not and I think that’s the biggest issue right now in marketing is there’s already this preconceived notion that’s fermented and Arthur Hayes will throw his shade at us or R Paul will throw shade us you just saw that you know and they dance around it but there all from three generations ago well salana went from nothing to where it’s at in six months well that’s different what about ethereum well that’s different guys crypto everything moves super fast here you’re dead today big tomorrow dead again right it’s it’s okay it’s it’s really about your fundamentals and the question is do we lose community and the answer is not usually and in many cases we develop an immune system and certain projects that aren’t compatible with that immune system they don’t get a good time here and they naturally get pushed out I won’t name names pictures do disappear from walls you know and uh and that’s a good ecosystem that’s a healthy vibrant ecosystem when it has that immune system and the fact that we keep growing we keep gaining we keep evolving and we keep challenging the you know taking on the biggest challenges and problems that’s a good indicator that this thing is going to be around in 5 years 10 years and 20 years it’s not dying it’s growing but then you get no acknowledgement from Crypt media from that because they’re bought and paid for so on that note I was about to ask a followup question on that bought and paid for is this cryp VCS pulling some strings you know we don’t want Capital going to cardal because we’re backing this specific asset or assets so we need to frame The Narrative and I don’t know which media is bought and and so forth like that um in addition there’s also a natural tribalism uh that takes place in crypto because of the financial incentives so whether your BTC Maxi even though you’re slow High fees you still I uh no don’t worry about cardano don’t worry about smart contracts right right uh is or is all of it above right all of the above of these things yeah I mean uh people talk their book and they talk their money and uh I I can’t speculate why a particular VC views them some things the way it does I mean look at the farter investment they have almost no utilization or adoption uh I’m sure that there’s plenty of cool and interesting things in that project but there’s been several statistics that I’ve looked at where the the daily active user count other things really don’t justify a multi-billion dollar uh valuation for a social network yet they got a very significant investment I think it was from a16z uh so why why are they doing that well the more cynical people say well it’s because of tokenomics you know they get access to something and they make quite a bit of money uh less cynical people say maybe they’re investing in the future and they think they’re going to get the hockey stick whatever have you there’s no rationality behind the valuations and inflows and outflows of things you can’t chase the price that’s something I’ve learned from being in the cryptocurrency industry for 12 years um the markets are just going to do what they do and you can’t predict them you can’t chase them and you can’t wake up and do some magical Kabuki and then suddenly you’ve doubled the price or tripled the price like there’s no greater example of that than when Stellar burnt a gargantuan pile of coins they destroyed like 10 years of runway for their Foundation burnt all those tokens and they got a little in the market took all of it so you see all these people burn a burn a do this do that first there’s nothing to burn and then second uh even if you could it doesn’t really do anything for you because the markets do what they do and you can’t predict them so what you got to do is you got to put your nose the grindstone and say are we producing real value are we building real things I don’t care if we’re in the club that VCS love or the media loves or these types of things is this useful to the country of Argentina is this useful for all the people in Kenya getting their loans is this useful for midnight and its ability to offer computational privacy to people is this useful for identity systems that can basically give credit scores to millions of unbanked people or put academic credentials on a blockchain you know is this useful for my synthetic biology companies where I have track and Trace glowing plants you know is it useful does it solve real problems and if it does it has a right to exist and it’s going to be here in five years or 10 years or 15 years the markets eventually will recede from this madness that they have and eventually it’s going to pick the right winners and losers like it did with Amazon versus pets.com and you know these other things so on that note you know with regards to narratives and media and so forth I saw you put out a poll regarding card potentially cardano treasury being used to create a non for-profit non for oh not for-profit media Dow that fairly reports crypto news across the industry tell us about what you’re thinking there well you know I just like polling people you know it’s always funny the minute you put up a poll people say I guess they’re doing that and then they instantly start criticizing you you start the conversation you know uh I thought about buying coin disc a few years back and I and we eventually got their data room and we thought that they were wildly optimistic about uh their their value and obviously whenever you you’re so far off on a Meeting of Minds you don’t pursue it uh but uh and of course they one of their podcasters mocked me for that uh for that acquisition but okay um but uh but anyway why because I thought it would been really cool to actually run a fair media organization see here’s the thing it’s it’s like we did EDI and even though we started it it’s at an academic institution it’s neutral and there’s already a Federation of entities forming around it to start talking around how do you fairly measure a blockchain the news should not be in fact should not be partisan concerns but we’re so [ __ ] up from living in a world of hyper propaganda and partisanship that we automatically believe it’s not possible to be objective guys when we report the temperature when we say it’s 30° outside it’s 30 degrees or not in a in a specific place a specific time okay it’s a fact it happened George Washington was President of the United States it happened it’s a fact it should not be partis it we should be able to converge to objectivity in these types of things so here’s the thing you create veracity markets so Market places for truth so they’re called prediction markets Robin Hansen did foundational work there you create veracity bonds that if somebody publishes a story and if it turns out not to be true they have a bond that’s connected to the story they lose their money so you create marketplaces for factchecking and these types of things you crowdsource knowledge that’s what Oracle systems are doing we see all the time and apparently those are nonpartisan but but we just can’t do it when news is involved use AI summarization uh Gro is experimenting with this on Twitter where you take a plurality of different things that people do and so you can put open source llms to inject these types of things and then you do allow editorialization to occur by balancing things so you know you do is you say okay well let’s go to all the major crypto projects and let them every month write an article about their ecosystem now of course that’s not a part objective article it’s subjective because it’s written from the perspective but you know it’s a salana article written by and for the salon of people and it gives them a Showcase of what their ecosystem is about and if people challenge those types of things then you invite people on the other side right op-eds criticizing that or saying that there is stuff there and what you do is you create a dialogue yeah okay and people start creating content around that so you can easily cure this entire thing as a dow and if you the reader are interested in the truth of something you can put a bounty up so you can say you know I because one of the things I always bother me I’ll give you a great example I live out here Colorado and there was a fast food restaurant where somebody drove a truck into the restaurant and I happened to drive by the restaurant shortly after it happened so I was looking I like that pickup truck should not be in that McDonald’s that doesn’t make any sense uh so they wrote an article about it and it’s in the papers somewhere but I never got a follow-up article so I never really found out what happened to the driver you know why did he drive into the McDonald’s was it alcohol or drugs or lost attention or had a heart attack or you know what happened and uh you know did the restaurant go out of business or these things because it changed ownership after it happened became something else so it was there was so many open questions there well if I had the ability to put a truth Bounty up I could actually put it up there and say hey this story a follow-up story on what happened with that just that’s something so simple right but it’s so powerful because then things never die could you imagine the bounties that would be put up for the Epstein story keep it going keep it going you know keep the eyeballs going keep people looking at it maybe just maybe we’re interested in that Client List it’s uh Eric weiny calls it anti-in so ordinarily when markets are fair and free every person in the world would be trying to write a story about this because you talk about some of the wealthiest most powerful people in the world doing despicable terrible things with kids you think about the the effect of publishing something you would get more clicks and more advertising than you’ve ever seen in your life so why don’t they do it because those people also happen to own the organizations and they prevent anybody from writing stories about it well if you have decentralized media you can’t stop it yeah because the inputs of the system are done bottom up so people can put a veracity bond in when they make an assertion people can put a bounty to find something you can use prediction markets the way the likeliness of something that happens and people can make bets on uh on outcomes or these types of things you can use AI summarization and you can balance it amongst different political Persuasions and then you use the editorial process and you just invite people to have a dialogue and a conversation and you create a Commons uh for for news to to come through and over time it eventually converges to uh a mechanism to get to a pretty objective reality now you create that who will criticize it two groups of people the group of people that don’t like the media that’s being written about them fairly or unfairly and the other group of people is the group of people you’re firing with a system like this so the mainstream media will say well that will be a cesspool for misinformation the istance of that will be a fundamental threat to our democracy and the force of state of democracy a fair and balanced mainstream media in other words we’ve lost our Monopoly on Truth we can’t possibly allow such a thing to exist and it is dangerous you going go back to Elon Musk he had $ 56 billion pay package and uh the politics worked in a certain direction and lo and behold one shareholder was nine shares could convince a single judge in Delaware to overturn 100 plus years of business precedent and overrule the will of the shareholders and the board and strip him of money he made by the way Norwegian Sovereign wealth fund uh who’s voting against must pay package are you going to give back the 10x that you made from your position on Tesla because he kind of did take it from a $50 billion company to a trillion doll company that was the deal and he gets 5% i’ take that deal I mean Tony if I called you up say if I make you a trillion dollars will you give me 5% yeah most people take that deal it’s a good deal yeah um and he did and he’s one of a few people alive to ever have done that uh so Bal it’s too much we can’t pay him but the shareholders already approved it why did they do this because of politics he’s being punished you know SpaceX is another example there’s this immigration lawsuit with the doj brought where SpaceX doesn’t want to hire Asylum Seekers and people uh who aren’t citizens of the United States well hang on a second here to have a security clearance you need to be a US citizen SpaceX launches spy satellites SpaceX deals with classified technology on a daily basis so the Department of Justice is saying well even though the Department of Defense and the intelligence Community is telling you that your employees have to have this criteria hire people who could never meet that eligibility so what does SpaceX do do they just sweep the floors you go hire this engineer and they’re not allowed to read anything or look anything because they can’t get the clearance for it so they don’t hire them and then suddenly they have a discrimination lawsuit huh yeah I wonder why they’re bringing such a thing battery power cars the White House has a convention on battery power cars for making battery power cars in America I think Tesla makes like 90% of all the battery power cars in America they weren’t invited weren’t invited yeah it’s crazy you know it it what because the politics don’t align and a lot of this stems from the purchase of Twitter because they went from a controlled source of media to an uncontrolled source of media and that is the single biggest threat to the establishment so we do have to be careful as an ecosystem in embracing a uh a news Dow because if we’re too good at it it actually becomes a replacement for how people get their news not just in the cryptocurrency space but more broadly across many spaces so uh that is something that even if there is a desire we have to do it very considered and deliberate way because it’ll put a big red Target on the back of the cardano ecosystem and and ways that we currently haven’t experienced um it’s a threat to power structures when they no longer have a monopoly on truth and anybody who tries to chip away at that Monopoly they really do not do well long term you see Julian Assange and you know all these other people alternative purveyors of information seldom survive long um Charles I want to get your thoughts on Meme coins we talked a bit about it with snck I have a LoveHate relationship with meme coins on one hand it’s amazing to see the crowdsourcing and culture on the blockchain and um all these things but on the other hand they’re so risky and volatile um don’t get me wrong there are certain meme coins that have a track record liquidity they’ve been around uh multiple bull market and bare Market Cycles what are your thoughts on it and you know maybe you have the same sentiment I don’t understand them you know it’s but I’m not hostile to them you know I’ve been in space for 12 years and there’s a lot of things I’ve seen in this industry I just can’t understand like EOS raises $4 billion and then they say they have no fiduciary obligation to their ecosystem they keep the money settle with the SEC and now they’re just living off that 4 billion dollars they raised I I I got so angry when that settlement came that was the only time in my life I ever threw my laptop and it broke because I was there I saw them take over consensus and have the [ __ ] billboard with with EOS and these other things and it was just extraordinary to me and we’ve all forgotten about it as an industry you know turn the pagef to move on certain exchanges listed bitconnect and I called them out we never got listed on those exchanges and it took years to get listed uh because of that there’s no consequences for it but yet CZ is the one who goes to prison for compliance issues because Elizabeth Warren’s agre with him okay great huh um the coinbase S1 filing you know they’re allowed to p become do an IPO and SEC says it’s perfectly fine then the same agency sues them for an illegal business model okay maybe you shouldn’t allow them to do an IPO because they’re kind of exposing all those retail investors to like illegal equities right I I don’t know I so mem coins are another example I just don’t understand um I don’t know where the value comes from I don’t know why cuz yeah there’s a society and a culture but there’s not an intention with a lot of people in these ecosystems to even be a member of it the only reason they’re in it is to profit and leave and then they always look for another one so it’s not like I can get Doge from a perspective that it seems to be almost like a lifestyle or or like a culture or something like that it’s okay yeah people collect Pokemon cards and magic and these types of thing I I get that that’s like a culture people like that Doge lifestyle they’re very committed to their Doge you know okay um it’s kind of a religion at this point yeah all right but dog with hat you know you know all this stuff it’s what is it I don’t understand it and you talk to people because I’ve gone to several meme coin spaces on X and and you say Hey you know why are you buying this meme coin and they say I want to make money yeah okay but do the math here you have to understand that if there’s a 100x where does that 100x come from there has to be a counterparty who’s purchasing and if that person’s motivation is to make money to you a Bonzi scheme and if you’re in early you do really well but 99% of you are going to lose all your money you do understand that it’s not really anything new I mean Charles konzi invented it you know it’s it’s been around for a long time so um all the power to them but I do believe that they have a strong tendency to devolve into pon anomic that are super unproductive and there’s no circular economy like you know bats is a perfect economy because you have a situation where tokens are given to you for sharing and then the process of sharing creates a channel for advertisers to buy to get your eyeballs so you are the product and it’s a medium to make you that product but that’s every single advertising model in web to whether it be Google or Facebook or so forth you you get the product for free the only difference between Brave and the other guys is that they’re cutting you into the action and because there’s an incentive for a person to buy the token to get ads you have a circular economy inside this this system so so okay that makes sense to me this attention token and and that and there’s a reason why it’s issued and there’s a reason why it’s consumed and it’s completely irrespective of the price of the underlying asset if I’m an Advertiser I don’t care if the tokens at Price 50 or Price 100 I’m just going to buy it for what it is and what and as much units as I need and that’s my price of advertising okay so that makes sense when you have a meme coin the person buying off of your 100x to divest you so you can realize that value they’re not getting anything other than a belief that it’s going to have another 100x and how many times can you do that before the system Goes Down catastrophically And once it goes down catastrophically who covers the loss Sy no one so you’re entering into a game where 99% of the people lose all their money there’s no circular economy there there’s no there’s no natural consumption or utility inside that system so that’s my big issue with mean coins is the best case scenario they’re kind of clubs and their social groups and people are there to participate in a culture and I get that and I understand that and if they’re having fun with it who the [ __ ] is is us to say that that’s a problem you know it’s like baldar gate three I think at this point has like 60,000 years of playtime or something amongst the community it’s the single biggest waste of productivity amongst white color Professionals in a certain age demographics as of for 2023 great uh it’s not our business to say whether that was a good thing or a bad thing on the other hand if it’s not about community and culture it’s just about profit return um I can’t endorse a system where 99% of people lose all their money for some Insider to dump on them and uh and walk away from it doesn’t make any sense to me yeah final question here before I let you go Charles um crypto regulations I mean we’ve seen an incredible 180 from uh the government you know in getting crypto regulations through repeal of Saab 121 in the House and Senate fit 21 out of the house Democrats sighting with Republicans Donald Trump coming out and supporting crypto um it seems like crypto is going to be have an impact on elections coming up uh you know this this cycle what are your thoughts and could we see the the fit 21 make it through the Senate this year or next year well there’s no companion bill so no and and this really bothered me I reached out to some Senators who shall remain nameless and I was like why could we not retrofit X Y and Z to be the companion bill because basically that guarantees that fit 21 can’t get in this legislative session through and that was by Design um so yes uh it was very impressive that Democrats broke rank in the house uh but the parliamentary procedures prevent this from actually becoming law this year uh which is sad because it’s such a simple law all things considered and it’s a very common sense reasonable framework so I’ll go to DC and you know we’ll talk to some people and we’ll see if if there’s anything we can do to put our finger on the scale but you know we’ve been talking to politicians since 2022 you our first engagement was with the financial inovation act and Senator lum’s Bill and Jill Bran’s Bill very similar to fit 21 it went nowhere because of FTX and Luna so why is there a sudden interest it’s very simple and very cynical there’s more than 50 million Americans I’ve seen counts all the way up to 93 million Americans who hold crypto most are under the age of 30 and most are liberal yeah and if you’re Joe Biden and you’re sitting here staring at a very very close 2024 election if you’re seen as the person destroying the gains of liberal young people they might get radicalized and mobilized because you’ve just cost them money um his party is the party of everything’s free you know your student loans get cancelled and this is an entitlement and this is an entitlement and this is you deserve this and you deserve this and here’s your handout and your Obama phone and these types of things um you know and you don’t want to be the party of takey takey and so if you go and person’s got $10,000 in crypto and then suddenly the C shows up and destroys all their gains they’re going to hold that very personally and get very angry at Joe Biden so what the Democrats are doing is pretending like they didn’t start a war on crypto you know they started operation choke point 2.0 don’t don’t [ __ ] tell me that was the Trump Administration there were certainly people in the Trump Administration like secretary minian for example who was not a pro crypto person but there wasn’t a coordinated all of government response where the administrative agency systematically sued every single exchange and started going after Defi and created anti- Clarity and reversed things like the Henman ruling or other things like that um that just didn’t exist during the Trump Administration it was more a annoyance and a passive disdain and the president wasn’t even aware of it Trump really didn’t understand crypto at all now he does because he knows he can make money from it he’s going to be Pro crypto if anything because it’s transactional for him by being pro crypto he will raise tens of millions of dollars he’ll make money for truth social and he’ll sell garbage nfts and in the process doing that he’ll make tens of millions of dollars and Trump likes anything that personally enriches him that is the one guarantee that is always true about Trump is if it makes him money he probably likes it and crypto is the ultimate McGuffin to invent money at a th air for for Trump so he’s going to be very Pro crypto in the policy because he wants to keep that cash cow um in Vivic rasabi does you know he’s he’s part of Trump’s campaign he’s part of Trump’s infrastructure he’s super pro crypto there’s a strong possibility that if Trump was elected he’d be the treasury secretary so he’s he’s definitely pushing Pro crypto policy behind the scenes so I can see something like a fit 21 passing under a trump Administration I do believe that if Biden is reelected he will Embrace and Empower gendler like people to accelerate the war on crypto because there’s no political consequences at that point and we will be a dramatic damage to the US cryptocurrency industry every single layer one will be sued every single US exchange will likely be shut down or under extreme scrutiny and no cryptocurrency legislation will pass because if this Administration wanted to it could have passed crypto legislation in 2022 it could have passed it in 2023 when fit21 was coming in the White House could have called Chuck Schumer and said how do we figure out to get a bipartisan companion bill and get these things done they didn’t care to do that so if they put the people in power that are suing everybody they’re calling the banks and telling them to unbank cryptocurrency companies they’re writing their own people are writing uh documents basically seeing cryptocurrencies like rat poison and it’s pointless and has no utility and they are not participating in the legislative process in many cases office getting it like when he vetoed sabb 121s repeal even though 60 Senators voted on it including Democrats you can’t with a straight face if you’re a Democrat look at me and say this Administration is giving crypto a fair shape also they lie when they say come in and register and it’s just Mass non-compliance well coinbase tried to come in and register yeah and you ghosted them and sued them you know so don’t lie to me and it’s a lie to say this you have Commissioners telling the General Public that it’s not possible to comply the people who are actually on the commission are saying these types of things you know and that that’s just it’s so insulting to our intelligence and then finally a framework comes out to actually clearly articulate what the sec’s role is and what the cftc’s role is and to create a construct that the SEC and the F cftc work together on to handle that and you have the chairman come out and say this is harmful to everybody because apparently living in a state of paranoia fear and ambiguity is a better State of Affairs this is completely at the Throne of Biden he’s completely responsible for it he hired the people he appointed these people he established the policy I’m sorry the buck stops at the president and the president has the power to put his foot down on the table and on the floor and say look guys this is what we’re going to do and presidents have done that you had Kennedy say we’re going to go to the Moon you had Bill Clinton say we’re going to do balance the budget and he did you know they and some sometimes very hard to do it and it takes a lot of political Capital Obama with the Affordable Care Act he never quite recovered from the political blow that he took from the ACA but he did it he put his entire political uh infrastructure on the table for it so Biden easily could go out there and say it’s Madness what’s going on we’re going to end the ambiguity uh come on in let’s talk about fit 21 and FIA and these other things and there’s plenty of Democrats who offer to work with him R from the Congress uh Senator widen was another one who offered to work with him a lot of moderate Democrats were coming in but no there’s just one who really really hates it Senator Elizabeth Warren and the reason we’re in this mess is she dropped out of the race in 2020 with an agreement that she would run domestic fiscal policy for Joe Biden that was the dayon that uh that they formed so she got to pick all the people that right now run the treasury Department so one Senator was given cart blanch the basically run rough shop over our entire industry which is just a horrendous situation and uh it’s shameful but that’s why maybe just maybe the most qualified person in the United States to run the country isn’t an 83-year-old person showing signs of dementia who handed Afghanistan back to the Taliban and uh sometimes forgets that he’s not a senator you know maybe just maybe we should have some political diversity I was really hopeful with RFK you know and he was running as a Democrat I said well okay you know I’m not really a huge Trump fan we’ve been there we’ve done that we need to move on as a nation and so we have a breath of fresh air with somebody totally new who by the way his grandfather was the first chair of the Securities Exchange Commission and wrote the SEC Bill wow okay been around for a while he’s at a front row seat to American politics since 1961 he was told straight up by the Democrat Party you could 100% of the votes in the primary you still will not be the nominee because the superdelegates won’t pick you so so is that democ democracy and Freedom the party made a decision the most qualified person to be the nominee of their party uh is an 83-year-old guy showing signs of dementia who who turned Afghanistan back over to the Taliban with our thanks and blessings and our military hardware and let all our translators get murdered um it’s it’s just it’s so far beyond the pale what what’s going on right now because at the end of the day it’s about power and it’s just about the perception of things and you I saw poll the other day 56% of Democrats voting for Joe Biden are voting because they hate Trump you know Tony that’s where we’re at in American political system so you can’t look at crypto separate from this you have to look at in the overall Trends and tides of where the macro’s at what’s going on with Trump and what’s going on with Kennedy and what’s going on with Biden and um you know the Democrats only care about crypto at the moment in so far as it has a political cost to them so if young people are going to vote against them they’re Pro crypto until after the election’s over but as far as I’m concerned there’s absolutely no no good faith there if there was good faith tell gend to resign yeah you know if there was good faith there then we could have a conversation because at least you’re saying we’re going to restart the things we need a fresh clean slate um you don’t get good faith by saying well maybe we’ll let a bill pass every now and then by the way a bill repealing something that we did wrong sap 121 right you know it’s just so out there to for for them to say that and uh it’s there’s no good faith negotiations it’s just the same double speak you come to expect in Washington especially with this particular Administration that’s made a habit of never answering any questions and I know I’m offending some of your audience it’s cuz they’re Democrats and they they absolutely love everything from Team blue and Trump is just literally orange Hitler to them and he’s such a threat to democracy the mere even utterance of his name like salon’s bad juu that will haunt you at night and give you turbo but at the end of the day like I’m keeping my comments to crypto I’m not talking about the broader you know situation just in crypto alone it’s very clear there are now differences between the political parties Rank and file Republicans are pro crypto and the Republican party as a whole would be willing to and has demonstrated the ability to pass meaningful Common Sense legislation the Democrat Party is the one by and large that is obstructing this process right now and when you go in November if you’re a single-issue voter you have two options you have Robert Kennedy who showed up at consensus and spoke there showed up at e Denver and spoke there and is very Pro crypto and you have Donald Trump those are your two options but uh but you know unfortunately uh with uh with Biden that’s not an option for you if you vote for him you’re voting for the destruction of the American cryptocurrency industry in my view as demonstrated by four years of actions he’s had Charles uh I wish we had another half an hour uh but thank you so much for joining me and I appreciate all your insights and uh I we’ll have to have you back on as things progress maybe in another couple months or so all right thank you so much much Tony cheers [Music]
Charles Hoskinson is the founder of Cardano and one of the co-founders of Ethereum. We discuss:
– Cardano’s Upcoming Hard Fork, Decentralization, and Governance
– A standardized decentralization test for the crypto industry
– The Cardano Foundation working with Argentina
– The potential of working with Elon Musk and his Tesla pay package debacle
– FUD about Cardano from media and VCs
– Memecoins and SNEK on Cardano
– US Crypto Regulations and upcoming Elections
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⏰ Time Stamps ⏰
00:00 Intro
02:20 Cardano hardfork
07:17 Governance participation
14:18 Decentralization test for the crypto industry
21:26 Decentralization SEC to CFTC
23:26 Cardano Foundation Argentina
33:42 Midnight and Airdrop
43:38 Elon Musk partnership?
51:18 Developer activity on Cardano
01:04:41 Media FUD against Cardano and News DAO
01:14:21 Memecoins and SNEK
01:20:30 US Crypto Regulations
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No sound
There is no sound
Charles I’ll never buy your crap coin, I hope your project fails ❤😘
Working!!
There seems to be an issue with the sound?
Smh. it's dead Jim
I bought more ADA during yesterday's dip 👊
🎉
Nice video
Very informative 👍🏻
Great Vid, Super Smart Man, Amazing Project, Time Will Tell. ☮️
Ada to the moon
Wow cardano is Packing!
Best project out there amazing job thanks Tony
Great to see Charles on again. I’m glad you guys didn’t touch on XRP.
Very very good interview! Thank you both!
Great interview. Love how Charles always speaks his mind, on memecoins or politics. He doesnt walk on eggshells.
Great ada, cardano
Top notch interview! Charles is the greatest speaker of the entire blockchain space
ADA going for number one Thanks Tony ❤
Cardano is the best.
Cardano is this cycles most obvious best kept secret play.
It’s so fkin obvious
True decentralisation is finally coming into reality and mofos are just fixated on price.
Once price starts to move the narrative around Cardano is going to be second to none.
Cardano blockchain is extremely promising. The grand vision of what it is trying to accomplish is superb.
Cardano is the hare but in the end it will become one of the clear winners. ADA is definitely a crypto to hodl.
I love this interview, Tony I could listen to this man go on and on with all the unfair political games, freedom of speech government over reach and also they trying to kill crypto awesome interview.
Great conversation
Very Well said in regards to USA politics , Great podcast
I buy $ADA if it’s up or down. Cardano is the way.
IMa do you a favor sell ADA and buy Solona there ur welcome….
So they paid a university to create a measurement index that just so happens to put Cardano at #1. Totally unbiased I'm sure.
I have a question for anyone watching this.
What happened to the ADA Stable coin? They were hyping it up a few years ago and nothing ever came. Also, what projects do they have that are being utilized? Im interested, i research and find nothing but tokens that are not doing anything.